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PunkyMalone
11-16-2004, 06:18 PM
Should Canada indict Bush?




THOMAS WALKOM (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Render&c=Page&cid=970599109774&ce=Columnist&colid=969907626796)

When U.S. President George W. Bush arrives in Ottawa — probably later this year — should he be welcomed? Or should he be charged with war crimes?

It's an interesting question. On the face of it, Bush seems a perfect candidate for prosecution under Canada's Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes Act.

This act was passed in 2000 to bring Canada's ineffectual laws in line with the rules of the new International Criminal Court. While never tested, it lays out sweeping categories under which a foreign leader like Bush could face arrest.

In particular, it holds that anyone who commits a war crime, even outside Canada, may be prosecuted by our courts. What is a war crime? According to the statute, it is any conduct defined as such by "customary international law" or by conventions that Canada has adopted.

War crimes also specifically include any breach of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, such as torture, degradation, wilfully depriving prisoners of war of their rights "to a fair and regular trial," launching attacks "in the knowledge that such attacks will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians" and deportation of persons from an area under occupation.

Outside of one well-publicized (and quickly squelched) attempt in Belgium, no one has tried to formally indict Bush. But both Oxfam International and the U.S. group Human Rights Watch have warned that some of the actions undertaken by the U.S. and its allies, particularly in Iraq, may fall under the war crime rubric.

The case for the prosecution looks quite promising. First, there is the fact of the Iraq war itself. After 1945, Allied tribunals in Nuremberg and Tokyo — in an astonishing precedent — ruled that states no longer had the unfettered right to invade other countries and that leaders who started such conflicts could be tried for waging illegal war.

Concurrently, the new United Nations outlawed all aggressive wars except those authorized by its Security Council.

Today, a strong case could be made that Bush violated the Nuremberg principles by invading Iraq. Indeed, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan has already labelled that war illegal in terms of the U.N. Charter.

Second, there is the manner in which the U.S. conducted this war.

The mistreatment of prisoners at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison is a clear contravention of the Geneva Accord. The U.S. is also deporting selected prisoners to camps outside of Iraq (another contravention). U.S. press reports also talk of shadowy prisons in Jordan run by the CIA, where suspects are routinely tortured. And the estimated civilian death toll of 100,000 may well contravene the Geneva Accords prohibition against the use of excessive force.

Canada's war crimes law specifically permits prosecution not only of those who carry out such crimes but of the military and political superiors who allow them to happen.

What has emerged since Abu Ghraib shows that officials at the highest levels of the Bush administration permitted and even encouraged the use of torture.

Given that Bush, as he likes to remind everyone, is the U.S. military's commander-in-chief, it is hard to argue he bears no responsibility.

Then there is Guantanamo Bay. The U.S. says detainees there do not fall under the Geneva accords. That's an old argument.

In 1946, Japanese defendants explained their mistreatment of prisoners of war by noting that their country had never signed any of the Geneva Conventions. The Japanese were convicted anyway.

Oddly enough, Canada may be one of the few places where someone like Bush could be brought to justice. Impeachment in the U.S. is most unlikely. And, at Bush's insistence, the new international criminal court has no jurisdiction over any American.

But a Canadian war crimes charge, too, would face many hurdles. Bush was furious last year when Belgians launched a war crimes suit in their country against him — so furious that Belgium not only backed down under U.S. threats but changed its law to prevent further recurrences.

As well, according to a foreign affairs spokesperson, visiting heads of state are immune from prosecution when in Canada on official business. If Ottawa wanted to act, it would have to wait until Bush was out of office — or hope to catch him when he comes up here to fish.

And, of course, Canada's government would have to want to act. War crimes prosecutions are political decisions that must be authorized by the federal attorney-general.

Still, Prime Minister Paul Martin has staked out his strong opposition to war crimes. This was his focus in a September address to the U.N. General Assembly.

There, Martin was talking specifically about war crimes committed by militiamen in far-off Sudan. But as my friends on the Star's editorial board noted in one of their strong defences of concerted international action against war crimes, the rule must be, "One law for all."

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1100517502971&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist969907626796&DPL=IvsNDS/7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes%20%20http://www.rabble.ca

KiD
11-16-2004, 06:28 PM
Bush totally should be tried, maybe another time. I'm sure a lot of Canadians would approve.

PunkyMalone
11-16-2004, 06:31 PM
But Paul Martin likes him, so I don't think it'll happen.

KiD
11-16-2004, 06:37 PM
Eh, he's got a minority government going. We'll see how long it lasts for him.

Death in a Bottle
11-16-2004, 08:23 PM
Oh, yeah, Canada is going to come prosecute the President of the United States. Because I'm sure the U.S. would just let that happen without intervening at all. Countries with militaries three times the size of yours wilt in the face of American threats, you guys would wet your little Canadian underpants if we even so much as raised a finger at you.

Still, it's a mildly amusing article about an unrealistic dream. And even though I hate Bush, I would be very pissed off at the Canadians if they tried to fuck with our president. It would be sad too, because in general, I like you guys.

Lamer Than Lame
11-16-2004, 09:28 PM
^ The Belgians tried to indict him. Do you hate Belgians now? Did you like them to begin with....and not just for their waffles, dang it. Heh.

I don't see this happening either, but I think the guy just wanted to put that idea out there--that that option does exist. But, I must say that Canadians are becoming less and less tolerant of the American government and are getting more and more loud about it. Well, that's my observation anyway.

punkin_monkey
11-16-2004, 09:54 PM
Canada should leave Bush alone. My opinion.

Death in a Bottle
11-16-2004, 10:18 PM
^ The Belgians tried to indict him. Do you hate Belgians now? Did you like them to begin with....and not just for their waffles, dang it. Heh.

I don't see this happening either, but I think the guy just wanted to put that idea out there--that that option does exist. But, I must say that Canadians are becoming less and less tolerant of the American government and are getting more and more loud about it. Well, that's my observation anyway.
Well, Belgium backed down before it got out of hand. And you're right, I highly doubt this guy was serious, and it is an interesting idea to put on the table. Personally, I don't think Canadians should get loud about their contempt for the American governent. That's what I like about Canadians: They don't bother anybody, and they mind their own business. When was the last country that got invaded by Canada? Exactly.

Snagg3r
11-16-2004, 11:44 PM
United States VS The Canucks.

I'd so want to fight that war!!!!



Everytime I think about the Canadian military, I think about the stormtroopers in Star Wars and how they always missed with their lasers. I think their military would be a lot like that.

Lamer Than Lame
11-17-2004, 12:31 AM
Isn't it the other way around? C'mon, big bad US of A aka The Empire. Bush as Darth Vader. The Storm troopers/Army missing their targets--er, I'll stop this analogy before it gets out of hand.

punkLECH
11-17-2004, 03:57 AM
United States VS The Canucks.

I'd so want to fight that war!!!!

Great to hear your enthusiasm soldier!! We'll put you up on the front lines.

(He'll die in the first wave.)

Lamer Than Lame
11-17-2004, 12:51 PM
One of our helicopters will malfunction and crash on them all...or something to that extent.

Snagg3r
11-17-2004, 01:23 PM
GO BACK TO THE NORTH POLE!!! Stupid eskimo's.

Lamer Than Lame
11-17-2004, 02:21 PM
Canadian Translation: GO BACK TO NUNAVUT! Stupid Inuit.

Snagg3r
11-17-2004, 02:24 PM
^ Eskimoian.

PunkyMalone
11-17-2004, 02:57 PM
One of our helicopters will malfunction and crash on them all...or something to that extent.
Hang on... we have helicopters?!

justin2006
11-17-2004, 03:15 PM
If Bush violated the geneva convention he would have been impeached and well.. that hasn't happened yet has it? If our own country isn't going to impeach him, i guaruntee you no other country will try him because no other country has the ability to enforce it's rule on the U.S. without starting a nuclear war... It'd be really stupid to start ww3 over the invasion of iraq.

quit that
11-17-2004, 04:27 PM
You, sir, are an idiot.

justin2006
11-17-2004, 04:50 PM
Yes, i guess my opinion makes me an idiot right?

quit that
11-17-2004, 07:51 PM
Pretty much.

...Well, not so much. I guess you're an idiot because you're contesting facts. He has violated the Geneva Convention. That just happened long enough ago for every to either forget it or for everyone to ignore its legitimacy. And your proof for him not violating said convention is that he has not been impeached. ...Maybe you should open up and realize that it might be the other way around. Maybe he hasn't been impeached for another reason.

Nightwind Hawk
11-17-2004, 08:17 PM
I hope they don't indict bush or anything... I don't want a war with canada.

Death in a Bottle
11-17-2004, 10:44 PM
...Maybe you should open up and realize that it might be the other way around. Maybe he hasn't been impeached for another reason.
Yeah, because most of Congress supports everything Bush does, so they're not going to impeach him.

Lamer Than Lame
11-18-2004, 01:07 PM
Hang on... we have helicopters?! Yeah, big, old school pieces of crap. One crashed on an aircraft carrier last year, I think. Yes, we have an aircraft carrier. Or maybe it was just the deck of a big ship....

And I thought international laws and conventions didn't apply to the States...well, that's what it seems like anyway.

PunkyMalone
11-18-2004, 03:13 PM
"The closest vessel is the USS (______ blank cause I can't remember the name). It's a laundry ship!"

gotta love Simpsons quotes, even when I butcher them.

Anyway. The US is above all law, because they have the weapons to be.

Death in a Bottle
11-18-2004, 04:33 PM
Of course we're above all law. Not only because we have the weapons to be, but the allies and diplomatic power to be. Every international law created is either proposed by us or by our close allies. So we can pretty much do what we want. Sucks, doesn't it? Apparently, we're even above our own law (see my most recent Sanctuary thread).

punkin_monkey
11-19-2004, 12:58 PM
So, anywho. I look at living in the US as an advantage. An advantage over just about anything. I like it. Mwahahahahaha.

If you're over 18 and really hate being in the US, heck, just move to Canada. I'm sure you'll find a job there as long as you aren't a doctor.

justin2006
11-19-2004, 02:06 PM
I wouldn't want to live in canada tho.. lol.. brrrrr. oo and canadian chicks are cool ;p *waves @ colby*

Lamer Than Lame
11-19-2004, 02:11 PM
If you're over 18 and really hate being in the US, heck, just move to Canada. I'm sure you'll find a job there as long as you aren't a doctor. Gah, that's such a cliched phrase to me now: "If you don't like it, move to Canada." Didn't it used to be "move to Russia"?

And to the person above me, Canada isn't cold all the time. I'd write a whole geographical explanation, but I really don't feel like it and I doubt anyone wants to hear it yet again.

punkin_monkey
11-21-2004, 09:06 PM
Well, yeah Russia too...but Canada is funnier.

Death in a Bottle
11-21-2004, 09:58 PM
Huh... I didn't really think that phrase was intended for humor.

Lamer Than Lame
11-22-2004, 01:11 AM
There's reds under the beds! <-- Funny...well, in my world it's funny even though that's probably also not intended for humour.

punkin_monkey
11-22-2004, 07:57 AM
It amuses me. Canada...hee hee.